From the Sublime to the Ridiculous – Ethical Heresy

7 03 2013

I don’t normally get dragged into ethical debates these days, but on this occasion, it seems, I can’t avoid it, in light of the fact that even those with whom I’ve climbed and shared adventures with in the past appear to be somehow doubting the ‘validity’ of my ascents.  I’m amazed it’s come to this, and that these individuals apparently believe that their position within the climbing community places them above everyone else; including not only the climbing masses, but also those at the forefront of the sport.  I wouldn’t be so phased if their ideas made any sense.

The debate, as it were, started around Dave Macleod’s recent activities on Ben Nevis.  One route – the provocatively titled White Noise (D10+) – was a pure dry tool route, and as far as I can make out Dave has never suggested otherwise.  The other, however – The Snotter (VIII,8) follows iced grooves, rock and ice – and whatever your take on it is most definitely a ‘mixed’ climb.  Ironically (in my view) it is the latter route that appears to have had the greater impact in stirring the loins of the winter climbing cogniscenti, despite tackling an obvious mixed climbing problem in what appears to me to be perfectly good style.

A variety of concerns have been raised variously by those who’ve objected to Dave’s ascent of The Snotter, which are summarised briefly as follows:

  • As the prominent icicle feature on the line is known to have touched down, or at least nearly touched down, on a number of previous occasions, climbing the route in an only ‘partially-formed’ state has been interpreted as cheating, robbing others of the chance to climb the line in its more fully-formed state;
  • The fact that the hardest / crux section of the route was climbed on dry rock and – even worse – in the sunshine, has led some to believe it is not a Scottish winter route and should therefore be given a more appropriate ‘M’ style continental grade;
  • The fact that Dave chose to climb the route in partially-formed, dry and sunny conditions has been perceived in some way as a threat to the traditional Scottish winter ethic – i.e. waiting for pure rock climbs, or longer sections of rock on otherwise mixed (rock/ice/turf) routes, to become well plastered in hoar frost making them “white” before attempting an ascent.

In short, my perspective on these concerns is that they are entirely and grossly misplaced.  Had they been levelled at White Noise, then fair enough, I’d have largely concured.  But in the case of The Snotter I can’t for the life of me see the problem.  Look at the picture of the route below.  How much of the route is dry rock?  Is this an acceptable winter route?  And ask yourself, honestly, if you’ve ever made what you felt at the time was a perfectly acceptable ascent of a Scottish winter route that involved climbing ice either from and / or onto sections of dry or largely dry rock?  If you haven’t, then I would hand on heart say you’ve missed out on some of the most enjoyable climbing Scotland has to offer.

Looks like a winter route to me - and it's in Scotland!

Looks like a winter route to me – and it’s in Scotland!

Now, below are two good examples of my own first ascents of new routes that I believe fall into a very similar bracket to The Snotter.  Remember these at least in part follow unclimbed territory, and would be either impossible or at least significantly harder without the presence of the ice.  This is the key factor for me here – that the ice DEFINES the routes, and it’s presence makes them easier (that isn’t to say that the ice is necessarily the crux).  So there’s both an aesthetic and a certain logic that to me makes these rutes particulrly attractive – more so than, say, a completely snowed-up piece of ice (and turf) free rock.

Pete Macpherson on Super Rat IX,10 - is this really bending the Scottish rules?!

Pete Macpherson getting scared in the sun on Super Rat IX,10 – is this really bending the Scottish rules?!

Anther evil sinner - Greg Boswell - high and dry on the first ascent of Vapouriser VIII,8.  Spot the final slot hih up - as black as the night (but with useful blobs of ice).

Anther evil sinner – Greg Boswell – high and dry on the first ascent of Vapouriser VIII,8. Spot the final slot high up – as black as the night (but with useful blobs of ice).

So tell me then, are these not valid Scottish winter ascents?  Was I cheating? Should they be considered as M-style rather than Scottish winter routes?  I don’t bloody well think so!  They were climbed in Scotland, in winter, in once-in-a-lifetime conditions.  Sometimes in Scotland, just occasionally, we don’t need to battle our way through 8 inches of frost to get at the rock, and such conditions certainly aren’t desirable on the hardest winter ground.  The style of climbing may not be quite the usual full-on plastered white get-your-sticky-beard-out gnarl we’re more used to, but I tell you what the climbing experience was none the worse for it – far from it in fact.

Unfortunately in Scotland we just don’t often get blessed with these ‘perfect’ conditions of quality ice and dry rock.  When it does happen, and you’re lucky enough to catch it, it’s a wonderful thing – please don’t whip out some imaginary rule book and tell us it’s cheating, because it isn’t. It’s simply being in the right place at the right time.  I can’t believe any individual climber would be so pious as to imagine they possess some kind of omnipresence that allows them to profess their ethical due diligence over other people’s adventures.   What a total bag of shit.  At least Dave (unlike some others) is consistently honest enough to show us pictures of his hard ascents, and describe them openly fr what they were on the day.

So what are the “rules” if we feel we should have them?  (I personally don’t – I think honestly and transparency is much more important).  If it’s a route based largely on ice, then to me the state of the rock is irrelevant – I’m sure any winter climber with half a brain cell would agree.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that ice needs to thaw in order to get fatter, so it’s kind of logical to expect that as the ice on a route grows the rock will often as not dry out.  This situation is exacerbted on routes based on very thin ice.  The Tough Brown Face is a great example – when the routes there are at there very best (on inch thick ice runels) the rock will typically be black.  Would Dave’s ascent of The Snotter have been any more acceptable if the icicle had almost touched down but the “dry, sunny wall” used to gain it been so steep that this didn’t make any difference, and he’d still tooled up dry rock?   Same route, potentially with more ice, but exactly the same climbing. This is just completely and utterly ridiculous.

To me, the only place where th requirement for a wintry appearance becomes an issue is on routes DEFINED by long sections or whole pitches without ice.  In this case, the whole point of attempting the route is to meet the challenge of winter head on.  If routes like this didn’t need to apear “white” there would quite simply be no logic in waitng until winter to climb them – much more sensible and enjoyable to go climb them on a warm summers evening.  There is also something aesthetically distasteful about tooling up largely dry rock with no ice in sight (sorry dry toolers!).

So why am I getting so excited you may ask?  Maybe it’s because I don’t like rules, and even less when people try to impose them in the mountains.  But more importantly I firmly believe that what makes a good winter route is that degree of logic and aesthetic.  To me it’s both logical and aesthetically satisfying when sections of rock link sections of ice.  As I said earlier – on routes such as this the state of the rock as irrelevant – it’s the ice that defines the route. It might not provide the hardest climbing, but it’s what brings the route into existence in the first place.  Do we think Dave would have attempted The Snotter if there was no ice at all?

But what really stirred me was when someone I know well and have climbed with often before extended their objection to The Snotter to a recent new route of my own (see the photo below).  In this case the new line in question (Parallel Grooves – VII,9) involved negotiating a 3m section of dry rock to gain more thin ice, within the context of a route that  was 250m long and otherwise climbed entirely on snow and thin ice.  Forgive me Father, for I have sinned.  At least it wasn’t sunny – God forbid!

The offending article - at this point two points of contact are in ice, and the crux moves ensue...

The offending article – at this point two points of contact are in ice, and the crux moves ensue…

This kind of misplaced ethical policing is exactly what Scottish winter climbing DOESN’T need.  I believe we need vision, logic and aesthetics.  There are loads of very exciting new route possibilities across the Highlands at grade IX and above that might involve climbing dry or at least black rock to gain difficult and often thin sections of ice.  For me these are some of the most exciting prospects for the future – more so than any piece of snowed-up pure rok.  Sure, there are lots of other possibilities that don’t form ice, and in these more ‘common’ cases the state of the rock becomes much more important; a wintry coat is what brings the route into condition; it’s what defines the route.  But to suggest there is only one style of route and that’s completely hoarded up and continuously white from bottom to top is not so much narrow-minded as completely ridiculous.  This is ethical bloody heresy.

And what of the provocatively-named White Noise?  To me this is the real aberration – a pointless distraction, nothing more – misguidedly established in precisely the wrong place.  There’s certainly a place for pure dry-tooling – I do a bit of it myself – but it certainly isn’t on Ben Nevis in the middle of winter. I think I can take from Dave’s notes on his blog (?) that he’s kind of seen this now, as reflected in the climbing community’s total disinterest in the route (UKC armchair pundits excepted, of course).  Winter climbing without any of the winter – now where’s the logic or aesthetic in that?



14 responses

7 03 2013
Ian Parnell

Alright Guy, OK so now a version of my thoughts is in the public domain, then I might as well stick my head above the parapet😉. I was the person who emailed Guy having seen the published picture just after writing a blog post about Dave’s two ascents on Ben Nevis. I was bemused by that shot which seemed to show a long section of dry tooling (count the number of runners). I could see that it was taken with a wide angle lens which distorts distances, and am aware that there is always more to the story than one photo and its a big cliff. I emailed Guy and stated that the photo ‘didn’t look pretty’. Guy replied showing more photos from the line and the amount of ice on the rest of the route. At no time have I suggested your route isn’t legit, Guy. I’ve just asked questions. It’s important to ask questions even when it’s uncomfortable (I don’t like challenging my mates). Scottish winter climbing with it’s nebulous ethical approach based on ‘feeling’ will always be one open to different interpretations. On several of my own ascents I’ve had doubts about what I’ve been doing – to give you a pertinent example when Dave (note to UKC readers who’ve claimed my comments have been a personal vendetta – we climb together and I think like each other!) and I climbed Glen Coe’s Against all Odds the turf was frozen hard but the rock was largely bare. Both of us decided not to claim or publicise our ascent. Substitute ice for that turf and we are into the same area of debate – how much bare rock is acceptable on a Scottish winter ascent? The ‘3m’ on Parallel Grooves? the ‘6m’ on the Snotter? the 10m or 15m on a future line? It’s a debate worth having, and all of us benefit from being asked questions. A case in point here, where you’ve given a passionate defence and defined your approach. Good luck for the rest of the season Guy and looking forward to hooking up with you for some of these future ascents you’ve got in mind. Ian Parnell

7 03 2013

Hi Ian,

I think I said in my post that if the critisism of Dave’s activities had been levelled at White Noise, I would have concurred. As it stands it’s The Snotter that seems to be grabbing all the attention, which is what to me seems ridiculous / ironic / misplaced. However, I’m not so sure about the value of asking questions around ethics, providing of coure that everyone’s doing what they can to leave the crags as they find them. I certainly don’t think any of us can justifiably appoint ourselves as keeper at the Ethical / Historical Gate – it’s too personal. I’m way more offended (and my climbing experience is way more altered) by all the in-situ gear left by winter climbers from the 80’s / 90’s, but I don’t se anyone standing on the parapet shouting about that. That would be a much more worthy cause than slagging Dave off for not waiting until a piece of ice is better formed.

Cheers. Guy

7 03 2013
Ian Parnell

I can see your point, I’m not sure if you’ve read my blog but at least 2/3rds of that was about White Noise, with just a short paragraph of relatively mild language about the Snotter. On the UKC forum everyone was fixating on the Snotter and I tried to answer as best I could – but the big trangression for me has always been White Noise. Re the Snotter as I said on my original blog it’s ‘subtle’ but there is obviously an amount of bare rock that is appropriate to reach an ice feature. That amount will depend on each route, where it is what condition it can form in etc. We obviously disagree in the case of the Snotter about that question.
re insitu gear I’m struggling to think of a piece of fixed gear I’ve come across on a repeat apart from the odd turf hook which we know are a bastard to get out, and of course the Sword of Damocles bolts!:-)!. But you’ve climbed far more up there than me, apart from a couple of Neil G and Garth routes is it a Lochnagar thing?

7 03 2013
Roger Webb

Roger Webb
Ethical policing? I thought it was a healthy debate. I have no difficulty with people climbing what they like (providing they don’t physicallywreck something for others). My issue with ‘The Snotter’ and I’ve told Dave is not that its been climbed but simply with the choice of grades.
The difference between ‘snotter’ and ‘parallel grooves’ is that, if you took the crux in isolation, one would be a rock route and the other a winter route, and, given that the crux dictates the grade, where does that take the winter grading system?
Or put another way, on one when you reach the ice you’ve reached easier ground, on the other you’re in the middle of the difficulties.
It may well be that the new tools have made the present system not fit for purpose rather like front pointing and twin axes finished off the old one. But at present we have the system we have.
The Snotter looks, and by all accounts is a great route, but would be anomolous within the current winter grade system. Despite the use of a long distance shot that makes the dry section seem insignificant, from Dave’s honest account and other photos it is not . The suggested VIII,8 grade is based on that section. Now if it was given VI,6,E3 or VI,6,M6 what is the problem? Same route but, in my view, a more realistic description of the difficulties.
I don’t see ‘The Snotter’ as ‘a real abberation’ (except in choice of grade), ‘pointless distraction’ or ‘misguided’
I am struggling to see how you have apparently conflated doubts about the use of a grading system for a particular route with crticism of routes of your own. I cannot for instance conceive of anyone doubting ‘sea of vapours’, without the ice how would you have got up?
I don’t think anyone has suggested that ‘there is only one style of route and thats is completely hoared up and white from bottom to top’ and if they did it would be completely unrealistic.

Conversely I can’t see what the problem is with ‘White Noise’ It doesn’t trash an existing route, its coherently graded, it may go the way of ‘logical progression’ it may not. It’s not something I would do if I could, but it’s not harming anyone. Of course if it had a ‘scottish winter’ grade I would think that unwarranted.

To sum up, I can’t speak for others, but I am not accusing Dave of cheating, you of cheating, doubting whether routes are ‘valid’ (whatever that may mean) or trying to impose rigorous ethical guidelines upon what may or may not be climbed. What I am arguing is that it would be anomolous to fit ‘The Snotter’ into the current ‘scottish winter’ grading system for the reasons that I’ve stated.

I do that because firstly if a grip isn’t kept on a grading system it will rapidly become meaningless and convey little reliable information to those using it, and secondly, if it becomes accepted practice to grade for dry rock then what would be the difference between Scottish Winter Climbing and M Grade climbing?


7 03 2013

Roger, Simon has said he isn’t going to report Dave’s ascent of The Snotter in the SMCJ – that’s an interesting take on ‘debate’!

And I received an email from Ian about Parallel Grooves along the lines that “it doesn’t look pretty” which felt fairly challenging.

It just strikes me that you’re picking at ethical hairs to the point that the adoption of any change to the grading system would be so subjective as to be meaningless. The crux sections of both Super Rat and Vapouriser involved tooling on dry rock, so by extension of your thinking these routes should be given M-grades, right? Given the style of climbing and the overall material composition of those routes (and The Snotter) this seems wholly inapropriate. I also have serious doubts that yourself, Simon and in fact the great majority of Scottish winter climbers have not on occasion climbed sections of largely dry and / or black rock but haven’t felt compelled as a result to apply an M-grade to their efforts?

As I said, to my mind there’s a lot of misplaced energy here, and there are much more significant issues worthy of debate. As an example, every hard route I’ve climbed on the Tough Brown Face has been riddled with shitty, nigh on useless roting in-situ gear that’s been deliberately left in place. You’ll find the same on a number of routes in the Norries – like Happy Tyroleans and Demon Direct for example. Shouldn’t we be concerning ourselves more with issues like this, where routes are being physically altered, rather than trying to impose unworkable new grading systems or subjective ethical boundaries?

Cheers, Guy

7 03 2013
Roger Webb

Firstly I think you’ll find that Simon hasn’t said that he won’t report the Snotter but it has to be accepted he didn’t phrase it very well.

Secondly I’m not Simon or Ian. These are my views.

We have all ‘tooled’ on dry rock during the course of a route but the issue here is that the crux section was entirely on dry rock, and that, to me, would make it anomolous to give it a ‘scottish winter grade’ only.

By extension my argument does not mean that ‘Vapouriser’ and ‘Super Rat’ get M Grades as you appear to be saying that the crux sections inolve tooling on dry rock, I assume that does not mean the crux is entirely dry rock. You will note that I am not advocating giving the thing an M Grade anyway but a composite one.

I don’t want to rerun my post above but please see that the issue I have is, if a route has grade dictated by the climbing of dry rock what differentiates scottish winter climbing from M grades?

For clarity these are my personal views or my own guidelines if you like, on ‘dry rock’ I never really set them out to myself until this morning so forgive me if they’re not succinct.

Firstly they’re my views and no one elses and if you don’t agree with them then it doesn’t follow that I think you have the moral compass of Adolf Eichman or the duplicity of Lance Armstrong.

Dry rock is exactly that, it does not inolve iced up cracks, frozen turf, verglas, heavy powder (but would include that thin stuff you can brush off easily), or rock on the margins of ice or turf features that you happen to be climbing. It is territory where if you could magically change you would be better off in rock shoes.

If you are intending to give a winter grade then any dry rock sections should be significantly easier than the crux, and the length of dry rock climbed should be significantly less than the length of the route.

That’s how I see it, others may have different views.

I don’t think it is ethical hair splitting, I am inolved in this debate as despite the complete irrelevance of winter climbing to real life I love it and I like its eccentricity.

What gave me cause for concern was Dave’s description and the photo of him climbing the crux section to the ice at the risk of repeating myself it just doesn’t seem to be ‘scottish winter’ climbing. I would like to point out that if Dave said that that section was done on icy cracks or verglas and the photo was deceptive I wouldn’t be writing this but he didn’t at it is primarily his account that leads me to my views.

It’s still climbing, I don’t have aproblem with that, trad and sport sit happily together (despite the doomongers in the 80s) I see no reason why ‘scottish winter’ routes ‘M’ routes, composite routes and ‘D’ routes can’t exist in the same country, but if they become indistinguishable then I believe that it will be the ‘scottish winter’ part that is subsumed. Again of no importance in the wider scheme of life but a cause of regret to me.

I don’t see how a new grading system can be described as unworkable when it hasn’t been formulated, it is in any event a task for those who are much younger than both of us.

I have no experience of coming across the rotting tat that you describe but imagine it must be frustrating but it seems to me a seperate subject.

And to your last, I am not trying to impose subjective ehtical boundaries as to what people climb. I am trying to persuade them to describe them in a different, and in my view more accurate, manner which is not at all the same thing. Are you sure that you are not in relation to ‘White Noise’?

I hope you agree that this is debate!


7 03 2013
Es Tresidder

I’m a bit out of the game at the moment, but these seem wise words to me Guy. The Snotter looks inspiring and a lot of fun. Look at it this way: Would it have been more fun if there had been no ice but the rock had been rimed up the whole way? Would it have been more of a “winter” route? Seems pretty obvious to me. You need rules for routes where ice and turf play little part, but the best routes, the ones that getter better the more in condition they are, always seemed to look after themselves to me.

Enjoy the rest of the season.


7 03 2013
Simon Richardson

Hi Guy, with respect, next time you quote people, please get it right. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. What I said was that I wouldn’t describe Dave’s ascent in the next edition of the Nevis guide as a Scottish winter route (i.e. give it a Scottish winter grade). The SMC guides are fully comprehensive so the guide will include all climbs on the mountain – including White Noise. By the way the SMCJ is nothing to do with me, but I fully expect both routes to be recorded there too.

Incidentally, given your stance on folk being judgemental, I’m rather surprised that you seem to have ignored this when stating your own verdict on White Noise.

Best Wishes


7 03 2013

Hi Simon, with (mutual) respect, I wasn’t quoting you; I was illustrating a point – which I think still stands (my apologies, but unlike you I’ve never been one for detail). The fact is you are deliberately chosing NOT to record a winter route as the first acentionist has suggested it should be, on he basis of the condition it was climbed in. That’s about as close to ‘ethical policing’ as it’s posible to get in Scottish climbing, short of going round to his house and giving him a ticket.

As for being judgemental, please remember my original post behind this comment thread was a response to an email that was sent directly to my Inbox regarding the questionable nature of my own climbing ethics. There seems to me little doubt that this was in part linked to your original blog post about The Snotter, with the inference that Dave and I somehow share an interest in pure dry-tooling in the mountains. My very brief and concise exercising of opinion on White Noise was a reactive attempt to dismiss any such thoughts! And anyway these were opinions, not judgements as such – I have no intention of acting on them in any way. The same can’t be said for your reaction to The Snotter…

What really amazes me here is your (and Roger’s) acceptance of a pure dry tooling route on the Ben (and presumably therefore elsewhere?). If I understand you (and Roger) correctly, you’re basically saying that dry tooling is fine in the Scottish mountains as long as the routes in question get an M ar D grade? I find that quite a shocking view. I’ve got lots of amazing and exciting ice-free new route route possibilities out there, and I’d be well pissed if people went out and climbed them when they’re completely dry. To my mind that would be a very sad day for Scottish winter climbing indeed – much more so than a slightly ‘atypical’ mixed route being given a traditional Scottish grade.

And for the record, I would quite categorically advise that the technical cruxes of both Super Rat and Vapouriser did indeed involve climbing largely dry / black rock. I still wouldn’t describe them as M-style routes! Not that I’ve ever climbed one. They were just brilliant, long and pokey routes climbed in exceptionalconditions.

In full-on debating mode now…

7 03 2013
Roger Webb

I would appreciate it if you didn’t simply categorise me as an adjunct of Simon. I may climb al ot with him but does not mean I do not have my own views or disagreements with him.

I don’t think that having dry tooling routes all over the Highlands would be a good thing at all, but it is a free country and there is nothing except peer pressure to prevent it.

My thinking behind giving M Grades or D grades is that it makes everything clear. I am prepared to be persuaded but, at present we risk ending up with D and M routes concealed by a fig leaf of a Scottish Grade.

If we give ‘scottish grades’ to routes that have large components of clean dry rock then it will ( I was going to say snowball but it doesn’t seem appropiate!) gradually transform into routes almost entirely comprising of that.
I think we agree on the desirable outcome but are arguing about the means.
As regards Super rat and Vapouriser I notice you say technical crux, was that the same as the crux?

8 03 2013
Roger Webb

A couple of questions/points ( I just got wokenup by an irelevant work call)
Looking at your original post you have a picture of Greg Boswell where you describe him as ‘high and dry’ but the photo, to me, doesn’t show that. It shows someone climbing icy grooves. You then go on to say ‘spot the final slot, high up- black as night (but with useful blobs of ice) again to me , that doesn’t describe a ‘dry’ pitch.
I’m confused as to what you think that I am trying to say.

13 03 2013

Hi Roger,

The hardest bit of Vapouriser involved tools in dry cracks, feet on ice and dry rock. I think the point I’m really tryng to make is that on rare occasions in Scotland we get these ‘perfect’ conditions of ice and dry rock, but they are just that – occasional and rare. On that basis I don’t think they justify a change in the grading system. Indeed, my understanding is that a grade is supposed to reflect ‘average conditions’. I rather suspect if we gave The Snotter, Super Rat, Vapouriser and other such ascents an M-grade (or whatever composite grade youre thinking of) any repeat ascentionists would be in for a bit of a shock! The reality is that these routes will most probably be reapeated in more ‘traditional’ conditions (as per our two original Super Rat attempts). To my mind, the most important thing is that people are honest and report conditions openly as Dave has done) – everyone has climbed Scottsh routes in atypical conditions, but I’ve not heard this put forward as a reason to change the grading system in the past.

If you want my honest view, I’d rather simplify the grading system more, rather than further elaborate and extend / develop it – grade I to X and no numerical grade thst should do it!:-)

7 03 2013
Simon Richardson

Hi Guy

Happy to have a friendly debate! I accept that my original post on The Snotter was worded too strongly – it is something that I regret now and possibly an abuse of ‘authority’. Perhaps the SMC will sack me as guidebook author? The photos of Dave did raise a strong reaction in me though, a bit like Ian’s email to you. (I must admit I wondered what was eating you when I got a strong reaction from you in an email later that evening!)

I think Ian was purely trying to be equitable. He had challenged Dave so felt he had to challenge you too, so it didn’t appear as any kind of bias.

Regarding White Noise, nobody can deny it has been climbed, and the guidebook is comprehensive. As folk have said, they want no re-writing of history. My view is that dry tooling routes have their place in Scotland, but the issue here, is whether we want such routes on the Ben. It’s certainly not up to me to decide, and as with all these things, I expect it will be agreed by consensus over time.

Thanks for confirmimg details about Super Rat and Vaporiser. I realised that was the case for SR (big roof after all), but didn’t know about Vapouriser.

Best Wishes


13 03 2013
Eugene Owens

Although I could never hope to climb any of these.. I do like Roger’ grading suggestion. Makes sense and describes the route… But, will this lead to different grading systems for Mixed and Ice? Will we start using the WI grade?

Just my 2p…

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